Amen about Chapin! I took lessons with him several times and OMG!!! He has such effortless control, it is ridiculous!
I've studied with Morello and Chapin. Accents are normally played with the stick higher than non accents. When playing fast, the arm is very important for creating accents. Lunging at the drums, using the whole arm works for me.
Playing the bell on the ride every other beat or every third beat is a good way of practicing this movement.
Also on the snare, I tend to hit rim shots for accents; it's a lot easier to do than getting the stick higher. [img]graemlins/pizza.gif[/img]
Seeing that some of you here had the chance to study with Joe Morello I want to ask you something:
Once I had the chance to talk with someone who had lessons with Joe Morello and he said that the "new" grip of Dave Weckl was used by Morello since years, I love this grip and feel very good with it but I have one problem with it that I didn't really understand who to resolve: how to use it when I play finger control stroke palm down with this grip....
I know that normally fast stroke are played with finger control palm up (French grip ) but sometime when I need just few fast stroke I use finger control with palm down, before when I used fulcrum between thumb and first finger after some practice it was easy to do that ( I had second, third and fourth finger doing finger control ) but now with Morello/Weckl grip as the fulcrum is between thumb and second finger the second finger act as fulcrum so I wonder if I have to use only third and fourth finger to play finger control stroke or if I have to also use the second finger ? using only third and fourth finger seem strange and don't feel good at all, when I asked the guy who studied with Morello he told me that third finger have to be used too and act both as fulcrum and pivot but then the first finger is also a pivot no ?
So to play finger control stroke palm down is it: first finger pivot, second finger fulcrum, pivot And finger control , third and fourth finger control stroke ? right ?
If those of you who studied with Morello can explain some about this problem I'll Really appreciate [img]graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hi Donu,
I know exactly what you mean. I too use the Morello / Weckl grip and simply shift fulcum to the first finger and keep palm down for finger control. One of the few technical things I don't agree with about Weckls hand technique is the way he insists you have to turn your palm round to the Timpani grip for finger control. I dont agree, masters like Morello get all their finger control from teh palm down position.
It is a lot easier to switch fulcrum for fingers than turn your arm almost 90 degrees (which Dave Weckl does)
I also have a question for those who studied with Morello:
When it comes to his accented 'Stone killers'
r r r R l l l L etc...
would he have you use pure gladstone on moeller for the accents? (IE: dropping on the third stroke and whipping accent (moeller) OR just using rebound and 'helping' the stick up to accent height for the accent (Gladstone)
I would really like this clarified. I personally feel Moeller is more relaxed, but interested to know opinion on this.
Tim.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Tim, i tested that too, 2 way to do that: don't move the stick position and then when we shift fulcum to the first finger the balance point is still on second finger so result is not so good, or second solution move a little the stick to have balance point on first finger and it's not easy to do that while playing and go back after when no need anymore finger control [img]confused.gif[/img]Originally posted by Tim_Wilson:
Hi Donu,
I know exactly what you mean. I too use the Morello / Weckl grip and simply shift fulcum to the first finger and keep palm down for finger control. One of the few technical things I don't agree with about Weckls hand technique is the way he insists you have to turn your palm round to the Timpani grip for finger control. I dont agree, masters like Morello get all their finger control from teh palm down position.
It is a lot easier to switch fulcrum for fingers than turn your arm almost 90 degrees (which Dave Weckl does)
I feel less alone now that i see that i'am not the only one who noticed this problem, i totally agree with you that it's more a playable position to use finger control with palm down ( when i understand how to do it right [img]tongue.gif[/img] )
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not usre i'am pro enough to reply to this question but i try ( pro will confirm if i'am right [img]wink.gif[/img] )Originally posted by Tim_Wilson:
I also have a question for those who studied with Morello:
When it comes to his accented 'Stone killers'
r r r R l l l L etc...
would he have you use pure gladstone on moeller for the accents? (IE: dropping on the third stroke and whipping accent (moeller) OR just using rebound and 'helping' the stick up to accent height for the accent (Gladstone)
I would really like this clarified. I personally feel Moeller is more relaxed, but interested to know opinion on this.
Tim.
According to Dom Famularo book you have to use Gladstone for slow tempo and Moeller for faster tempo
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From what i saw of the Gladstone method (which i WAS familiar with afterall... i just didn't know it was called that till i saw it!), i would agree with the above statement, therefore.According to Dom Famularo book you have to use Gladstone for slow tempo and Moeller for faster tempo
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi, Do you mean that for play finger control palm down you have to leave you first finger and use the thumb and second finger as fullcrum ? then the second finger act both as fullcrum and pivot ? which finger move actually for finger control in palm down so ?Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
I play finger technique either french style(thumbs on top) or palms down(chaffee showed me that way) And I work each finger for exercise. Sometimes my pointer finger leaves the stick(or fulcum) and kinda hangs on top, and the thumb and middle finger are an offset fulcrum. Kinda like a fulcrum with fingers around it. Make sense?
Thank's for all you input of Morello exercise, this is Gold advice [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
Hi Flamtriplet,
Great to hear from you and thanks for the advice, very useful.
I have a quick question about this:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I understand the buzz studies - there a are great examples in Master Studies. What I would love to have more of an insight into though is the thinking behind these kinds of techiques (buzzed paradiddles, for example). Is about gaining greater control over normal accents? general stick control? improving muscle co-ordination and relaxation? Or simply improving your buzz roll?Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
A couple of things Joe showed me, were to play buzzez instead of accents. Play a paradiddle rlrR lrlL with the capitals as buzzez. Pull out accents as well rrrR lllL. He called it a squeeze out technique.
My studies with Jim and Joe are blended, so I'm not sure who said what---it all makes sense
Hope that makes sense,
Cheers,
Tim.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi, Do you mean that for play finger control palm down you have to leave you first finger and use the thumb and second finger as fullcrum ? then the second finger act both as fullcrum and pivot ? which finger move actually for finger control in palm down so ?Originally posted by donu:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
I play finger technique either french style(thumbs on top) or palms down(chaffee showed me that way) And I work each finger for exercise. Sometimes my pointer finger leaves the stick(or fulcum) and kinda hangs on top, and the thumb and middle finger are an offset fulcrum. Kinda like a fulcrum with fingers around it. Make sense?
Thank's for all you input of Morello exercise, this is Gold advice [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can play a loose grip, ala weckl, with the thumb and second finger(second joint) for loud back beats or jazz dynamics Moeller style. You can also use the normal fulcrum with the first finger. Placing the fulcrum either on the first or second joint. I experiment. I just make sure my thumb does not touh the side of my hand.
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